Green Dragon Extraction

[Happyweedz]

Hey Heisenburg, welcome and thank you for your reply!

If the process or final product can easily be made better, that would be great! Plus, I am interested in some means of condensing and recycling the vapors lost during the reduction process....if that can be done safely & effectively.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts, ideas & possibilities.

& Thanx SME...

Happy

[PsychedelicSam]

Nice posts w/ well thought out ideas. I'll go over the entire thread soon and before I get into great detail because I haven't read all posts yet...just want to let you know I'm here to help in any way I can.
I did notice a simple 15-minute shake step. This in itself is inadequate I'm sure and can be improved upon w/ a fun mod (like carrying it around with you after the 15') or a tedious mod (like mincing, for lack of a better word)...
It's late here so after some winks I'll be back w/ a full tank

disclaimer: all content is for educational purposes and should be ignored in every sense

There is a 15 minute shake which is sufficient because you're letting your solution sit for an additional few hours and shaken at least once more. After it's drained, there is another cycle with fresh ethanol. We're not too worried about the polar compounds that seep into the extraction with the extra soak time because many of those compounds have healing benefits of their own and also, the freezing cold temperatures inhibit some of that action. Frankly, the chlorophyll taste factor isn't really an issue with cured buds but is more detectable with trim and fan leaves. You can also winterize your finished solution to precipitate out those unwanted plant waxes and oils.

I've had people use all sorts of things for the shake since many of us have issues that can make a 15 minute shake rather daunting, things like paint shakers, ball bearing polishers, stick blenders, etc. Whatever works is fine as long as it doesn't contaminate the extraction, but you really don't want to grind the reefer too fine because the finer it is, the more alcohol is going to be retained by the plant matter and it also makes for a much slower filtration and needs an additional filter to remove all the sediment. I like to use a joint rolling texture instead.

Personal adaptations are expected and encouraged.

[Heisenberg]

There is a 15 minute shake which is sufficient

This method is simplistic with advantages. Identify your goal...whether it's quick&easy, inexpensive, max recovery, uniqueness, safety.... Sonication with ethanol is quicker and will result in greater yields. There is the drawback of expense: not everyone has one in their shed and they'll put ya back a few.

let....your solution sit for an additional few hours

Time is in your favor as long as your container is sealed, to prevent evaporation. Ethanol-soluble desireables come in 2 extremes: those compounds highly soluble in EtOH, and those barely soluble in EtOH. Let's focus on the barely soluble ones for a moment. Hours or days could be necessary for complete equilibrium to be reached with these compounds, so don't be in a hurry.

Liquid extraction has to do with the physical desire for a compound to leave it's happy home, like my ex bailing out of bed for cleaner air after i release some mayan death cloud. The pressure of seeking an easier way, like out of the room, gets to a point where it just happens, like a survival thing. With liquid-solid extraction, "enough" time is just necessary. Match up a good solvent and most of the desireables dissolve out each time an additional extraction is performed. There always remains some desireables in the solid phase due to physical barriers originally present in the plant structure. Rinsing washes away already-dissolved desireables which are in solution but hanging up in and around the crannies. Targeting the remaining desireables not yet in the EtOH phase is where appreciation of good extraction technique begins.

Leave a window open long enough and eventually all the bad gas goes out leaving only a few molecules in that room. Extractions are quite different. Many physical barriers are present in the nature of the plant structure. As you come to understand there are differing solubility factors of interferents present in the plant, you will like myself conclude that extraction time is truly in your favor. T

Liquid-liquid extractions will reach 100% equilibrium, but try to extract from within a complicated plant matrix? Never gonna happen at standard temperatures and pressures without first creating super fine powder or adding a second solvent phase which is beyond an entrepeneur w/o a lab. I have years of experience with matrices including shellfish and placenta, & i can tell ya proteins can b a bitch.

Each time additional EtOH is used a new bracket of equilibrating factors comes to play. Remember the compounds barely soluble? Each chemical has a particular solubility factor in EtOH. Compounds barely soluble have a knack of needing many extractions, when for example the extraction is limited to using low temperatures and atmospheric (low) pressure. Increase the temperature and pressure, and solubility factors multiply. On a side-note: often visual indicators of the progress of an extraction, such as color depth, is misleading. Chlorophyl has its' own solubility factor. So don't read too much into what it looks like, unless your ability to consistently reproduce results is associated w/ your prediction of complete extraction, all other variables being the same.

there is another cycle with fresh ethanol

I suggest using a smaller amount of solvent for the secondary & tertiary extractions. Also, 150mL sounds excessive for the first. Way excessive. I'd use a much smaller amount each time and add additional extraction(s) w/ plenty of time inbetween. Let the extraction occur in a jar, like a babyfood jar, and cap it tight. Keep it warm...hot if you can get away with it not leaking. Consider the waiting time as incubation.

polar compounds........waxes and oils

Some of them will go into the EtOH preferentially during extraction. EtOH is polar. The concentration of these substances in each (150mL) of the extracts could be low, so overall there's not much of them to end up in the combined extracts. Cool the extract down, and these compounds "come out of solution." They stick to the glass, the spoon...anything&everything, because their solubility in EtOH is so low in the first place. There's bound to be some non-polar oils too. They're like cooking oil, practically insoluble in EtOH/H2O. These non-polar oils act like condoms, wrapping themselves around prize granules, blocking the solvent from reaching them. Implement additional techniques I will address in my next non-pyrotechnic post

disclaimer: all content is for educational purposes and should be ignored in every sense

[GrowTutor]

That's going to take me a while to digest but my biggest concerns/questions are about the alcohol:

Is the reduction phase really necessary? It seems like a fire hazard although that risk is minimized slightly by using a double boiler, having good ventilation or fully capturing the vapors and, hopefully, avoiding open flames.

Additionally, wouldn't it just be better to double the amount of product added to the alcohol rather than reducing it by half using heat or does the heat do something extra?

Is there a better solution(s)/methods to get what we want out of the plant material? Most people use canabutter for cooking, for example. Perhaps there's something else, besides alcohol, that makes for good tinctures. Things that can be added to food/drink or taken solo, either swallowed or sublingual drops?

That brings me to other questions. While we all know that the trichomes contain a lot of what we want (THC/CBD) in concentrated form are the essential oils that are extracted from within the cells themselves also high (no pun intended) in content or should we concentrate on the outside more than the inside?

Is it different for other herbal/floral/plant extracts than it is for MMJ? Like menthol is often used in muscle liniments.


You may have answered some or all of that in your post but, like I said, it's going to take me a while to absorb it all so I thought I'd ask in layman's terms.


GT

[PsychedelicSam]

This method is simplistic with advantages. Identify your goal...whether it's quick&easy, inexpensive, max recovery, uniqueness, safety.... Sonication with ethanol is quicker and will result in greater yields. There is the drawback of expense: not everyone has one in their shed and they'll put ya back a few.

This method is designed for the weak, disabled, disadvantaged, etc. as well as anyone who has space issues or on a limited budget and not as a science project. It's meant to help medically more than as a recreational outlet, although that's nice, too. Many of us have to make these things ourselves and have to make do with what we have on hand. I personally live in a 350sq ft apt and don't have the room for any fancy equipment and couldn't use it if I had it because of disabilities. This process has been refined to provide a basic guide teaching a basic method with basic parameters. I don't want to overwhelm anyone with trying to understand principles that are yet foreign to them. I want them to learn without thinking too hard about it. It's just like chemistry, you have to be taught about the reactions before you can master them. I did well in chemistry and have an affinity but most people get lost if they have to think too hard about something. Provide a simple to use tutorial that really works, and it doesn't matter what kind of bonding is responsible. Afterwards, when there are visible results, is when the evolution of the process is seen, if it's desired. And everyone moves forward at their own speed. This concept is built upon later but I've found it better to not get too technical at the beginning of a thread if I want to keep the conversation going. Forum dwellers have short attention spans and many will bypass too many words. I know by experience.

[GrowTutor]

This method is simplistic with advantages. Identify your goal...whether it's quick&easy, inexpensive, max recovery, uniqueness, safety.... Sonication with ethanol is quicker and will result in greater yields. There is the drawback of expense: not everyone has one in their shed and they'll put ya back a few.

This method is designed for the weak, disabled, disadvantaged, etc. as well as anyone who has space issues or on a limited budget and not as a science project. It's meant to help medically more than as a recreational outlet, although that's nice, too. Many of us have to make these things ourselves and have to make do with what we have on hand. I personally live in a 350sq ft apt and don't have the room for any fancy equipment and couldn't use it if I had it because of disabilities. This process has been refined to provide a basic guide teaching a basic method with basic parameters. I don't want to overwhelm anyone with trying to understand principles that are yet foreign to them. I want them to learn without thinking too hard about it. It's just like chemistry, you have to be taught about the reactions before you can master them. I did well in chemistry and have an affinity but most people get lost if they have to think too hard about something. Provide a simple to use tutorial that really works, and it doesn't matter what kind of bonding is responsible. Afterwards, when there are visible results, is when the evolution of the process is seen, if it's desired. And everyone moves forward at their own speed. This concept is built upon later but I've found it better to not get too technical at the beginning of a thread if I want to keep the conversation going. Forum dwellers have short attention spans and many will bypass too many words. I know by experience.

I was going to read that but it had too many words...

Seriously, I think it's probably best to find a bit of a middle ground between the max extraction with the best possible results using the most expensive equipment and the cheapest/easiest with less than stellar results. Considering how expensive our meds are (I'm a patient too), it's not unreasonable to expect that we should at least consider having to make some investments in order to do it ourselves and save in the long run. Especially considering what we spend to grow the meds and ESPECIALLY if that modest investment might seriously increase quality, purity and production. I'm not saying that we necessarily need to invest thousands in equipment but if there's a machine or a process that drastically improves the end result it might be worth hundreds and maybe even thousands.

I asked Mr. H here to help everyone out, Happy had questions about improving the system and he's the man that can. As a scientist, he needs the data in order to tailor the solutions he'd propose. There's nothing wrong with refining existing methods and there's nothing wrong with being able to do things in several ways. Equally, just because something CAN be refined doesn't always make it wrong. One man's trash...etc.

[PsychedelicSam]

I couldn't agree more. And Happy was asking for the info. However, my response was just defining the goals of the process. However, there are a lot of us who cannot afford to make an investment in the proper gear, no matter what. We don't grow and most don't live in places they can grow or have easy access to cannabis. Fixed incomes don't allow a lot of room for that, not if you want to eat at the end of the month. Anyone who has the ability to invest in better equipment is ahead of the game and should be able to adapt the extraction method, although I seriously doubt that the better equipment will do much better for the effort. An alcohol recovery system would be worth the money, though.

There can never be too much information, but if that information is given en masse it can trigger an overload so it needs to be dispensed judiciously. I want you guys here to get users signed on, not scared away by too much science. It's different in grow forums because growers need detail and science. It's not that way in "edibles" where people just want results and don't care how it happened, until you can catch their attention and get them to show an interest, then they want to know why and how to improve. For some people making a good edible is impossible but they grow a great garden. Edibles and extracts are the same category because you have to extract the cannabinoids to make the edibles and I make a lot of edibles from the Green Dragon. And concentrate users like the detail and science. Go figure.

Why don't you make a small batch to test out? Then we'll have something to really discuss.

[GrowTutor]

I couldn't agree more. And Happy was asking for the info. However, my response was just defining the goals of the process. However, there are a lot of us who cannot afford to make an investment in the proper gear, no matter what. We don't grow and most don't live in places they can grow or have easy access to cannabis. Fixed incomes don't allow a lot of room for that, not if you want to eat at the end of the month. Anyone who has the ability to invest in better equipment is ahead of the game and should be able to adapt the extraction method, although I seriously doubt that the better equipment will do much better for the effort. An alcohol recovery system would be worth the money, though.

There can never be too much information, but if that information is given en masse it can trigger an overload so it needs to be dispensed judiciously. I want you guys here to get users signed on, not scared away by too much science. It's different in grow forums because growers need detail and science. It's not that way in "edibles" where people just want results and don't care how it happened, until you can catch their attention and get them to show an interest, then they want to know why and how to improve. For some people making a good edible is impossible but they grow a great garden. Edibles and extracts are the same category because you have to extract the cannabinoids to make the edibles and I make a lot of edibles from the Green Dragon. And concentrate users like the detail and science. Go figure.

Why don't you make a small batch to test out? Then we'll have something to really discuss.

I know added expenses can be daunting, I've been out of work for over two years due to an auto accident and I know what it's like to live on a limited budget. Still we find ways to buy raw meds (very expensive here) if we don't grow and grow lights, nutrients, genetics and all of the other expenses related to growing if we do grow so it's not unreasonable to save up for equipment that will double our yield and improve quality, etc. Would you not "find a way" to save a few hundred bucks if it doubled your yield and saved time too? Nothing that Mr. H suggests means that the current way can't be used but perhaps it would make you feel better if he proposed solutions for different "levels" so he could start with "Basic" which would add little to no cost, "Advanced" which might require modest investments and even "Pro" which could be more like a "if I won the lottery" type solution. Maybe even skip the "pro" solution if he doesn't feel like geeking out on fantasy solutions that few medical growers would ever use. Maybe a "best bang for the buck" "level?" I don't care what the levels are called or how many their are. Would that help?

I know, I can be pretty verbose myself and I was only kidding about not reading the post due to too many words. Scientists, however, have a different level of verbosity. I'm sure he can make the actual solutions better for the layman but I really don't mind if he geeks out on the info too.

I can always split the discussion parts from the recipe parts to make new topics that are more human readable if it gets out of hand.

I'd like to try it but it's going to have to wait until I'm a little more post-op, I'm in no condition to burn down my kitchen.

[PsychedelicSam]

I knew you were being facetious with that word comment, but I've seen it in reality and it's a shame. I don't mind the science and other technical issues interspersed amongst normal discussion. I feel that if people understand why and how something works, they'll appreciate it more and it will become a more common practice. My first goal, though is to just have someone take the leap first and try it. It's a big leap because it is such a departure from the standard Green Dragon methods. I'm a little touchy on that because I have been called all sorts of uncomplimentary things concerning this process until people started to make it. It only took one and their response online was sufficient to spark more belief and interest and now I find my terms and methods used throughout the communities. But not in my name, and that's great.

But because this is a fresh outing, I'm hoping we can get a volunteer before it gets too technical, but there's really no need to monitor and direct any technical posts. I've got some other guides for this section so I imagine there'll be plenty of opportunity and need for detailed explanations beyond my meager skills. I'm thinking RSO-style extract for the next one, small batch.

Post-op, huh? I remember a time or two like that and I almost did the thing you joked about, burning down the house. I had a bunch of rods put in my back and could barely move and had to use a walker to do anything and two days after I got out of the hospital I tried making some and forgot ventilation and was very sloppy and the alcohol flashed. I was very fortunate because the alcohol flashed quickly but it burnt the floor, the vanity and my deodorant before burning out. I couldn't have gotten away from a full fire and would have died quickly. Dodged a bullet that time.

[Happyweedz]

I am not wealthy, nor am I a scientist....I am just an old stoner....looking for the easiest way to enjoy the most effects from my MJ....while cutting down on smoking....lol

If I can get better results, especially for less $$$, I would spend $50-100 to reap that much in savings over 2-3 months. Or if there is a better direction I could go, enlighten me...

Thank you Lord, that I have no constant ailment or chronic pain....at this point! So I am just exploring what works for me and what is most effective. I don't think there is much chance of me avoiding a need to learn this in not too distant future, but for now it's about learning & getting good at it...and enjoying the buzz!

Though I do feel for anyone living with chronic pain or a debilitating illness....I have lived it and know it is not fun!!

Happy