Setting up a lab

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FCG-Frank
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Setting up a lab

Post by FCG-Frank »

I've reached a point where I no longer need to funnel several hundreds of dollars into my medicine each month since I've invested the capital to grow my own. SME helped me setup an efficient perpetual grow which should yield enough products for me to experiment freely with.

I would like to setup a semi permanent lab that would allow me to make better extractions more quickly and more efficiently. Mostly for the fun of it. I have the space and can afford it, but I could use some advice. My area of expertise quickly diverted from the hard science and went into the human medical field, so I'm rusty on that front. Plus, in my studying days, the labs were up and running already, so other than the basic necessities and glassware I am familiar with, what lab equipment should I stock? A sonicator, perhaps?
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Re: Setting up a lab

Post by GrowTutor »

That depends on how deep you want to go.

While Mr H is probably the true expert in lab science, I was planning on using sonication *and* vacuum reduction for my method but even non-top of the line equipment isn't very cheap. You can find cheap-ER sonicators (without timers and the bells and whistles) on amazon/ebay/etc. You can get decent automotive vacuum pumps for a reasonable price, I'm sure lab pumps are probably more. Other than a sonicator and the vacuum reduction, I'd have to defer to Mr. H...
FCG-Frank
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Re: Setting up a lab

Post by FCG-Frank »

What about chromatography equipment?

Gas or HPLC? The latter is more expensive, I reckon the first, used, could be had for a few grand perhaps.

What about reference material? Are they difficult to obtain and how much do they cost?
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Re: Setting up a lab

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Those questions would be better answered by Heisenberg if I can get him to show up again... ;)
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Heisenberg
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Re: Setting up a lab

Post by Heisenberg »

A sonicator is mandatory. Sonication with DHMO too is a possible huge advantage (and disadvantage). There are people who buy up old lab equipment to resell...ask around, many dentist offices will know of people like this, especially new dental doc's who are trying to save money with good, used equipment. Dental/medical offices use sonicators before autoclaving.

You want a sonicator with the ability to adjust the intensity/frequency. I've never looked inside one to see how they're designed, but my best guess about the internals of the adjustable type is that the lower the intensity, the higher the frequency. Just feels like it.

Any descent sonicator will have a timer built-in. Just turn it on by turning the dial to the amount of time you desire. Shuts off automatically.

Down the road you'd regret not getting intensity/timer features. Imagine being limited on the kitchen stove to one heat setting for all cooking.

re:GC/HPLC, YES they are really good to have.

GC) You'll need a bottle(s) of appropriate compressed gas(es) to continue operating the GC, all of which you can get pretty cheap if you are content w/ some older surplus equipment, certainly less than 1K for everything including the plotter. Someone wanted to give me one, but it was w/ a packed column instead of the newer capillary columns. Might have to travel some distance to get it though, which adds transportation costs. I'm guessing you'd start off using FID (Flame Ionization Detection) or FID/PID (combination with Photo Ionization Detection) to quantitate because GC/MS (/Mass Spectrometry) should wait until you develope your objectives after you begin identifying which cannabino's you find easiest to use as markers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabinoid All cannabino's are aromatic so the PID will be great. However all test extracts will need to be in a suitable solvent like methylene chloride or petroleum ether before injection. Consider snagging an appropriate GC/MS or Ion Trap if you see one for cheap though.

HPLC) GPC/SEC (Gel Permeation Chromatography aka Size Exclusion Chromatography) uses this equipment/method. Awesome way to separate out the gunk for some totally clear tinc. I'm leaning in the direction of simple liquid chromatography without high-pressure for cleanup...cheap and simpler than the high pressure approach. However w/ your lab experience I'd say you will want HPLC soon enough. Any lab needs to have a plan for "waste" especially where liquid chromatography is used.

You'll have some trouble getting stock standards w/o first showing accreditation http://www.abcam.com/--cannabidiol-ab120448.html Keep looking, someone's bound to jump on the opportunity to provide good standards...for a price :shifty:

nothing should be construed from any of my ramblings...educational and imformative ramblings at their poetic best!
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Re: Setting up a lab

Post by GrowTutor »

The sonicators with better timers can even do x minutes/hour or x-on/y-off type schedules. What kind of schedule would you suggest with a sonicator to get decent extractions? I would just gently water cure the material being extracted *without* the sonicator before using the sonicator to do the alcohol extraction. That way he only extracts the bad stuff in the DHMO and saves the good stuff for the second extraction.

You lost me on the GC/HPCL tech but Frank probably got it. :thumbup:

He's also in Canada so he has different stuff to deal with. ;)
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Re: Setting up a lab

Post by Heisenberg »

Good question about ON-OFF sonication scheduling.... I'd suggest getting a simple sonicator without this feature, to save cost for one, as well as the KISS approach. Don't get me wrong, niceties of a good batch IS in all the details :)

However there are other equally important variables (considerations) just as exciting that open up new products. The idea of introducting a small amount of additional solvent to the initial DHMO wash with the intention of chilling it way down to precipitate out the gunk is so exciting i wanna cream. A GC setup can quickly confirm if initial test batches lose any desireables in the gunk
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Re: Setting up a lab

Post by GrowTutor »

What about using a digital timer (cheap at home depot) instead? Is it better to use an on/off sonication cycle or is x min on good enough?

Actually, with mj, you don't want the DHMO extraction too cold or the trichomes become brittle and end up in your solvent. Sure, you can filter the used DHMO but if you're gentle with the first extraction you don't have to worry about it as much.

Another question that I wonder about is can the chlorophyll be safely removed from the alcohol extraction to turn it from green to clear? The whole idea of the initial DHMO extraction is to remove the bad stuff, like chlorophyll, while leaving the THC/CBD so it helps but I'd like to find ways to get the extraction even cleaner, if safely possible. Since it's for consumption safety is the most important factor.
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Re: Setting up a lab

Post by Heisenberg »

Add a Steam Bath to the list. With one, solvent transfers are a breeze with NO product loss
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